Wiring lamps using a 5 pin Lucas plug and socket

40 comments

  1. I have just purchased a 5 pin plug and socket for auxillary lights as used on works rally minis, and i am wondering how you go about wiring the spots and fogs from this plug with 5 wires in one casing? I'm guessing that you cut a slit in the outer sheath and then feed one of the other 4 wires through the slit and into the lamp, and do the same further down the wiring to wire up the other lamps. I will be running 4 Lucas 7' lamps on my mini.

    If anyone has any pictures and information then this would be great.
    Thanks, Evan.

  2. 5 pin plug

    Sorry, I don't the wiring information in detail. I would be very interested in where you got your plug from though as I need to do the same thing.

    The car I am copying (works clubman ) has each individual light on it's own circuit (individually switched) – I do have some photo's of the relays under the bonnet and switch panel arrangement if this is of any help.

  3. 5 pin plug = 4 lives plus common earth I guess, so you would use 4 switches and 4 relays, 1 for each light, all wired to the plug….that way you could put 100w halogen bulbs in each lamp…lol (joke !!)

    Only guessing at this, im no electrician so dont shoot me if it goes up in smoke !!!

  4. DaveShreev wrote: “I wouldn't recommend this layout unless one of the 5 cores is 4 times the size of the others! It guarantees either, or possibly both, dim lights and smoke with all lights on as the earth tries to carry 4 times the current of any of the other wires. Local earths at the lamps would be much easier.”

    Don't forget it will earth back through the lamp mountings, the lamp brackets and mounting points to the body as well.
    A simpler system is to wire the lights in pairs (the outers together, and the inners together). The outers can be arranged to only come on with main beam. This way you need 2 switches and 2 relays. The switches must be put in the relay coil circuit and not the light circuit. I would recommend an additional fuse box just for the lights as well, then any short you get (remember the lights stick out beyond the front bumper so can be easily damaged) will blow the spotlight fuse and not the fuse for the circuits activated by the ignition switch, which would render the car immobile.
    Pete

  5. Thanks for the help everyone, all the wires on my 5 pin plug and socket are the same size, i'm guessing they are around 1.5mm diameter. One of the pins is larger than the rest so could suggest an Earth. I was thinking of earthing all the lights individually to a certain point somewhere on the cars body or similar. I was going to buy the Lucas 6RA type relays and wire each light up to each one if this is acceptable or run 2 on one relay?

    If i wired the lights to work on main beam then if there was a fault it would most probably blow the whole lighting circuit?

    Evan.

  6. 1977 loud min wrote: “Thanks for the help everyone, all the wires on my 5 pin plug and socket are the same size, i'm guessing they are around 1.5mm diameter. One of the pins is larger than the rest so could suggest an Earth. I was thinking of earthing all the lights individually to a certain point somewhere on the cars body or similar. I was going to buy the Lucas 6RA type relays and wire each light up to each one if this is acceptable or run 2 on one relay?

    If i wired the lights to work on main beam then if there was a fault it would most probably blow the whole lighting circuit?

    Evan.”

    I've always wired my road rally cars so they come on only with main beam – it was (a probably still is) a requirement of the Road rally rules and a road traffic laws. It is easy to do. You need to find the the Blue/red wire either on the back of the headlight unit or on the dip switch and from there take a new wire via a switch on the dashboard to the coil of the relay. The other side of the relay is earthed. Then from the switch side of the relay run a heavy duty wire to the auxilary lights, and the other side of the relay to a power feed, which ideally should be afused supply. This why I suggest you fit an additional fuse box, as the existing fuse box is fairly crowded. Also any fault will then either blow the fuse in the original fuse box or the one in the new fusebox but not both. So you will always retain forward light that you can drive on.

    An additional point is convenience so when something comes the other way just dipping the lights turns off the auxilary lights as well. You don't want to be fumbling for 2 or maybe 4 switches as well as pressing the dip switch with your foot or one hand, steering and losing your night vision all at the same time!
    Pete

  7. Thanks for the help its much appreciated. Now all i need is a lamp bar and a couple of relays and i can get to work fitting all the lamps etc.

  8. 1977 loud min wrote: “Thanks for the help its much appreciated. Now all i need is a lamp bar and a couple of relays and i can get to work fitting all the lamps etc.”

    Lamp Bar! There are several out there. MiniSpares sell a works replica lamp bar which copies the original design, but it is not as substantial as the original. You will need some lamp steadies (from the top of the lamps to the flitch plate) to stop them vibrating. The vibration makes the lights very distracting at night! If you want a real period look, use big diameter Jubilee clips cit in half and flattened!

    There are some other versions which are the same as the ones sold with four 5.5 inch lights for about £60 or so. I've got one of these but there are a number of problems with them. 1) they are difficut to fit, and 2) they are narrower than the works type (although confusingly they are sold as 'works type' ) and cannot be drilled to take the original Lucas 700 type spotlights.

    The Minispares one has 4 holes for modern spotlights, but is wide enough to have the holes enlarged to take 700 type lamps. Also they come in two versions – a budget bar wich is steel painted black and a Stainless steel which looks much better but is around twice the price.
    Pete

  9. Thanks for the info Pete, i was thinking of getting the stainless steel one from minispares as it will most probably last longer than the matt black one and of course as you said will look better. You say use jubilee clips flattened to steady the lamps, how would these attach as the lamp backs are plain with no mountings or anything to put the steady onto? I've seen some works replica minis use what look to be threaded rods to adjust the toughtness of the lamp.

    Evan.

  10. 1977 loud min wrote: “Thanks for the info Pete, i was thinking of getting the stainless steel one from minispares as it will most probably last longer than the matt black one and of course as you said will look better. You say use jubilee clips flattened to steady the lamps, how would these attach as the lamp backs are plain with no mountings or anything to put the steady onto? I've seen some works replica minis use what look to be threaded rods to adjust the toughtness of the lamp.

    Evan.”

    The ones you have seen on replica cars are (I think) more modern than the period of the car. The Works didn't use steady bars – certainly in the pictures and on actual cars I've seen – but the lamp bar was a fair bit thicker than the ones you can buy today. The threaded rod ones are very neat but at around £12 + vat each are also quite expensive. You might get away with only 2 steadies on the centre lamps, which I did, but in my case the centre ones are the long range lights. Jubilee clips are much cheaper, and as I said above are very '60s!

    In both cases you need to drill the back shell of the light, quite high up and near the rim. I used a large diameter self tapper to fix to the flitch plate and a small screw and nut to fix to the lamp. If cut the Jubilee clip with about an inch on the side which fixes to the screw body of the clip, leaving the tail as the long end, attach the long end to the flitch plate and the short end to the lamp. You can then adjust the lights without opening the bonnet, which is useful. I'll see if I can get some photos posted over the weekend.
    Pete

  11. Ah right i think i know what you mean, if you could get some pictures that would be of great help. Do you have a works replica mini, do you have any pictures you could post on here?

    Evan.

  12. Mine is not a works replica. I've built the car I wwould have built between 1967 and the early 70's if I could have afforded to buy and insure a Cooper in the first place! At the time I was a member of the Shenstone and District Car club and they had many members with very strong links to the Works Comps dept. and Special Tuning. I don't think I would have got hold of Comps Parts, but I'm sure would have bought some Special Tuning parts especially by the early 70's. But it never happened! About 6 years ago I did buy a Mark1 Cooper and set about building the car I never had, so it is now a 1293cc car based on a 1300GT block as I wouldn't have been able to afford an S block back in the 70's with Cooper S running gear – I have all the Cooper parts stored away.
    The car featured on the Cover of the June issue of the MCR magazine (with the prototype Cooper 500), but a couple more pictures are attached

  13. pad wrote: “5 pin plug = 4 lives plus common earth I guess, so you would use 4 switches and 4 relays, 1 for each light, all wired to the plug….that way you could put 100w halogen bulbs in each lamp…lol (joke !!)

    Only guessing at this, im no electrician so dont shoot me if it goes up in smoke !!!”

    I wouldn't recommend this layout unless one of the 5 cores is 4 times the size of the others! It guarantees either, or possibly both, dim lights and smoke with all lights on as the earth tries to carry 4 times the current of any of the other wires. Local earths at the lamps would be much easier.

  14. Regarding my minilites, i did contact minilite and they said they don't do crack testing etc anymore because when people found they had a crack the wheels were rendered useless. I have been running them for around a month and are ok at the moment so i hope they stay that way.

    Evan.

  15. That is one nice mini. Where did you get the arches from, i am looking for some similar to the works cars but most group 2 narrow type arches are very thin at the rear width wise. Looks like you are running 10×5 minilites, i currently have a set of genuine pre 1967 magnesium minilites in 10×4.5 size with the groove and lip in the wheel.

    Evan.

  16. The arches were on the car when I bought it. They are also in not too good condition so could really do with replacing. It was fitted with 6' Cosmic Mk2 s, with spacer drums at the back with standard Cooper front discs, so all the track dimensions were wrong. The Minilites are 4.5' FIA Cooper S wheels, which don't need the arches but I've kept them because they keep the body sides clean, and they look so good with Island Blue paint.

    Rear group 2 arches were always very thin (if you mean they don't stick out very far) and should only just cover 5' wheels. 5.5' wheels are usually a bit marginal legally. FIA spec S wheels should fit within the standard wheel arches.

    With your old Minilites it is important to get them checked before you use them, as the magnesium alloy deteriorates over time and the strength of the wheels may be seriously compromised. Try Googling 'Minilite Wheels' as I'm sure they will be able to help with assessing the wheels and any refurbishment needed. They recently moved from Williton in Somerset to Telford in Shropshire.

    Glad you like the car, it's a lot fun and we are doing Minis to Monte again this year.
    Pete

  17. 1977 loud min wrote: “Ah right i think i know what you mean, if you could get some pictures that would be of great help. Do you have a works replica mini, do you have any pictures you could post on here?

    Evan.”

    Evan

    Picture of light steady attached. The steady does 2 jobs – 1) stops the lights vibrating and 2) provides up and down adjustment of the beam. The large self tapper on the flitch plate allows the (4) lamps to be quickly removed complete with the lamp bracket (mine is the Minispares Works type) without losing the adjustment. Doing it this way allows you to adjust the light beam up and down without opening the bonnet. I just find a quiet piece of road (easy in rural Staffordshire!) and adjust the lights up/down and left/right to give the light pattern that suits me. I take them off for the MOT!

    Hope this helps,
    Pete

  18. Pete, I myself, like you have quite a few quiet roads around here so adjusting the lamps to suit will be relatively easy providing i can see what i'm doing when out in the dark roads.
    The pictures are of great help and look like a very good idea of securing and adjusting the lamps. I will also be going for the works replica lamp bar from minispares. Would you recommend buying one as i know the stainless steel one is quite expensive? Was it easy to fit etc?

    Finally do you know which size the jubilee clips are as they look just right as i am going to be running Lucas SLR700 7' lamps (i think thats the name).

    Evan.

  19. Interesting debate. What bemuses me is WHY any firm selling a 'works replica' lamp bar makes it too weak (and thus non-replica) to stop lamps shaking.
    I can confirm no steady bars (late 70s/early 80s technology) or straightened jubilee clips (early/mid 70s technology!) were used on works Minis – or any private Mini rally car I ever encountered in the 60s. I used a works bar with 4 Cibie Oscars rather than Lucas 700s and never had any shaking problems. Other arrangements tended to be equally secure on Minis. The moment I got an Escort I had to resort to steady bars, despite making my own lamp brackets that were probably stronger than many.
    Why not make your own works Mini bars using proper thickness steel? It's not rocket science and is simple 'cut and weld'.

  20. LMM76 wrote: “Why not make your own works Mini bars using proper thickness steel? It's not rocket science and is simple 'cut and weld'.”

    I'd suggest, these days, that one of the major problems with ideas like this is sourcing materials and time. 30 years ago it was easy – visit one of 4 local, small, engineering shops, rummage through the scrap bin, and throw 50p in the tea club box; a six pack at Christmas went down well.:D These days you'll spend more time getting the materials than you spend on the construction, which makes buying off the shelf the prefered option for many.

  21. LMM76C : Did you use the minispares works replica bar then because i have heard of other people encountering the same vibrations with the lights mounted onto this type of bar. I'm guessing you used a works bar in the 60's that were used on the works type minis of that period, in which case would have been the more sturdy example. I wouldn't really want to attempt any bar myself as the materials etc as DaveShreeve said can be quite expensve now days, and these items are readily available at some reputable mini stores.

    PeteC : Thanks for the information regarding fitment, i will have a look at the instructions at some point in the near future when i purchase the lamp bar.

    Evan.

  22. LMM76 wrote: “Interesting debate. What bemuses me is WHY any firm selling a 'works replica' lamp bar makes it too weak (and thus non-replica) to stop lamps shaking.
    I can confirm no steady bars (late 70s/early 80s technology) or straightened jubilee clips (early/mid 70s technology!) were used on works Minis – or any private Mini rally car I ever encountered in the 60s. I used a works bar with 4 Cibie Oscars rather than Lucas 700s and never had any shaking problems. Other arrangements tended to be equally secure on Minis. The moment I got an Escort I had to resort to steady bars, despite making my own lamp brackets that were probably stronger than many.
    Why not make your own works Mini bars using proper thickness steel? It's not rocket science and is simple 'cut and weld'.”

    I wondered why my lights were vibrating, so I checked the lamp bar against both ex-Works cars on Minis to Monte 2008, and although I didn't have any accurate means of measuring the thickness, the originals certainly looked and felt thicker! Might take a digital vernier with me this year and try some scientific measurements.

    In my Escort road rally days, I had some genuine RS lamp brackets and they were immune to the lights vibrating but they were pretty expensive! I only used 2 Lucas 7' lights initially and later Cibie Oscar Sport, both of which are currently on my Mini. Remember one of the purposes of the steady was to provide accurate vertical adjustment, so many people used them for only that purpose – me included.

    Pete

  23. I would just like to say that to my knowledge if you care to check the works car's for the 1967 monte used lamp steadies ( on at least two cars that I know), and the first time I encountered the use of jubilee clips to support adjust lamps ( which I have used before), was on FEV 1H early 70's. (that is a Ford 😡 sorry):)

  24. Back in the day, we bought some things from Special Tuning because they were sold at subsidised prices. One of the things that killed that was the non BMC/BL trade buying bits there and trying to sell them on with mark up. Rootes/Chrysler sold a lot of competition stuff equally cheaply.
    Come the (for me) Ford period, everything was expensive from Ford (and didn't fit without fettling). Only later did independent suppliers sell equally good Ford kit (now it's relatively more expensive again with a reduced Escort market). So we made our own bits wherever possible.
    Isn't the whole point of true amateur restoration/competition preparation that, if your time is not available for free, you probably cannot afford to do it anyway?
    'Material' is a lot more readily available now than it was to me in the late 60s (and there wasn't the range of DIY chains then selling small strips of aluminium etc. at stratospheric rip off prices, so you can't make that comparison).
    If you can buy the good bits cheaper than those you can make yourself, someone is subsidising them – and I don't see that happening now, unlike in ST days. The work in a 'works bar' is mainly cutting bending and drilling. The welding is minimal – a couple of short lines to join the bar angles and a couple of even shorter ones in the brackets, so no real cost to get someone else to do it (but of course one thing that has changed is that Arc and MIG welders are available today for relative peanuts compared to the 60s or 70s).

    I have to repeat: whatever is the point of buying something that doesn't work properly/isn't an accurate replica just because a 'reputable Mini spares specialist' is selling it on the cheap for boy racers rather than serious players?

  25. 1977 loud min wrote: “Pete, I myself, like you have quite a few quiet roads around here so adjusting the lamps to suit will be relatively easy providing i can see what i'm doing when out in the dark roads.
    The pictures are of great help and look like a very good idea of securing and adjusting the lamps. I will also be going for the works replica lamp bar from minispares. Would you recommend buying one as i know the stainless steel one is quite expensive? Was it easy to fit etc?

    Finally do you know which size the jubilee clips are as they look just right as i am going to be running Lucas SLR700 7' lamps (i think thats the name).

    Evan.”

    I would recommend the stainless one if the purse runs to the extra price! I haven't seen a black one but the stainless one looks very good. However as in my previous post, it is not quite as sturdy as the original ones the Works used.

    As far as fitting goes there are instructions on the Minispares site. Search for C-AJJ3329 (which is the stainless lamp bar) and there is a link to the instructions. I found it was reasonably straightforward to fit, other than you have to cut the grille and I must say I didn't do this too well on one side – the other (second) side I cut was a much better fit. Also you can't use overriders and corner bars if your car is a MK1. Drilling the holes through the front panel was also an act of bravery! However, the instructions are pretty good, and if you follow them you won't have too many problems.

    On extra thought! If your front panel has a triangular cut in the right hand end ( as you look at the front of the car) you will need to fill this, as the bracket on that side bolts to it. I simply cut a triangular piece from some sheet steel 1/2inch larger than the hole and pop riveted it into place, with rivets every 3/4 in.I wasn't sure how much load it woud be subjected to! I painted it satin black before fitting.

    If you are using the SLR 700 lights you might have to enlarge the mounting holes in the lamp bar. Stainless is quite hard to drill or file!
    Pete

    Forgot to mention the Jubilee clips. I just measured the distance from where I wanted to attach the clip to the lamp back to the engine side of the flitch plate. Added a bit to that and then measured the circumference around a Jubilee clip to get one the right size. The size you need are quite expensive (compared to a hose clip) so be generous in you sizing to allow a bit of scop for mods as you go.
    Pete

  26. Ok i see your point, it can be fairly easy to run a few welds drill some holes etc after taking exact measurements. I wouldn't call the minispares item 'cheap' at the price it's advertised at but seems to be of good quality as suggested by others who have used it. I can't comment on your comment saying it 'if it doesn't work properly' as i haven't yet purchased one but soon will so will post my findings.

    Evan.

  27. Have to say looking at the minispares pics the brackets dont look as strong as some not sure what the thickness is>I have seen them with the brackets made from 4 mm

  28. Do you know where you saw the better made examples. I have seen a topic started on a forum where the minispares one was said to be made of better quality compared to one from i think MOSS and somewhere else.

  29. What is the correct procedure for a 2 spot 2 fog system where each lamp has its own toggle switch as seen on many works dashes? Does each lamp get its own relay if they are to function independently? Anyone who uploads a wiring diagram for the works light layout gets a gold star 😀

  30. cswrigh wrote: “What is the correct procedure for a 2 spot 2 fog system where each lamp has its own toggle switch as seen on many works dashes? Does each lamp get its own relay if they are to function independently? Anyone who uploads a wiring diagram for the works light layout gets a gold star :D”

    The works cars used 4 auxilary lights if running to Goup2 or Group5 spect or 2 lights if running in Group 1(GRX555D). On the dash you have posted, there are 2 switches for the spots and 2 switches for the fogs. Usually the spots were the inner lights and the fogs were the outers. Above the spot switches is the label 'WITH MAIN BEAM' indicating they go out when the headlights are dipped. To do this you need to run a wire from the main beam lead (Blue/red) via the switch to one side of the relay coil. The other side of the coil is earthed (use a black lead). The current fuse box is pretty crowded, so install a new fuse box and run a lead (brown) from the solenoid to one side of the new fuse box, and provide a loop to the second fuse. Use a similar diameter lead to the existing brown lead that feeds the original fuse box. From the fused side, run another thick lead (I use red) to one side of the switch in the relay, and from the other side of the relay switch, the same size lead to the spotlight. You can then loop to the second spot and only have one dashboard switch, or you have to repeat the above using a second relay and switch for the other spotlight. On the dash you have posted, the fog lights are available without the headlights, so to do this run a wire from the fused side of the other fuse in the new fuse box to the dashboard switch and then to the relay coil. The other side is earthed. Run a thick lead from the second fuse in the new fuse box to relay swtch and from the other side of the switch a thick lead to the fog light. Repeat if you want to both fog lights to be switched independently. All connectors should be soldered if you want to approach the standard of works cars, but I think all of the loom in a works car was upgraded with additional fuses and thicker wires. They were also bespoke made for the car during preparation.

    I've described this a number of times so I might knock up a diagram!
    Pete

  31. I've no problems with the above and it definitely works, but common practice today would be to take the fog switch feed from the sidelight wiring. That way you don't end up running fogs on the front and absolutely nothing to the rear!:eek: No idea how the works did it.

  32. DaveShreev wrote: “I've no problems with the above and it definitely works, but common practice today would be to take the fog switch feed from the sidelight wiring. That way you don't end up running fogs on the front and absolutely nothing to the rear!:eek: No idea how the works did it.”

    That would be fine as well. Equally you could do it from the dipped beam circuit so that the fogs would come on with dipped headlights and go out (or change onto the spots) with main beam. Most times though the Works seem to have used 700 headlight units in the fog position as cornering lights, in which case they ran all 4 auxilaries with main beam. The outer lights were then usually pointing left and right at quite an angle – although Tony Fall seemed to like them crossing over! Personal preference!
    Pete

  33. Depends if you're using them to drive in fog! Over the tops, Sheffield to Stone on a foggy Sunday night, was always better without the added reflections from dipped beam. Mind you, for maximum effect these fog lights were also mounted below the bumper.

  34. Hi PeteC, I'm attempting to draw all that wiring info out now but if you could make a diagram that would be extremely helpful. Thanks

    So if I read correctly, each light will use its own relay if it is to have its own switch. Therefore four relays are needed? Any comments on what to use? Lucas 28RAs? I've heard mention of Marchal 514s before as they are internally fused…

    (Basically I'd like to be able to wire up the 4 aux lights to be individually switched, without blowing up my wiring loom or alternator)

  35. I have got 4 7' lamps on my mini and run two modern relays bought from my local motor shops and wired two lamps to one relay and 2 switches but will soon be adding in 2 more relays along with 2 more switches as with most works minis.
    Pete it would be very helpful if you managed to get a diagram drawn up?

    Evan.

  36. 1977 loud min wrote: “I have got 4 7' lamps on my mini and run two modern relays bought from my local motor shops and wired two lamps to one relay and 2 switches but will soon be adding in 2 more relays along with 2 more switches as with most works minis.
    Pete it would be very helpful if you managed to get a diagram drawn up?

    Evan.”

    Pete's directions are very detailed and I drew up a rough one of my own on top of a printout of the MkI Cooper diagram – should work fine. Now to wire it in the car! I could upload a neater version if Pete doesn't

  37. cswrigh wrote: “Pete's directions are very detailed and I drew up a rough one of my own on top of a printout of the MkI Cooper diagram – should work fine. Now to wire it in the car! I could upload a neater version if Pete doesn't”

    I have started to make up some drawings to show different permutations:

    1 Standard wiring with no auxiliary lights.
    2 With 2 auxiliary lights which go out when main beam is dipped. This version would use 1 switch and 1 relay. This is required to be road legal but more important for some it is a must for road rallies and is checked at scrutineering.
    3 As above but with 2 switches and 2 relays.
    4 With 2 fog lights that only come on with side lights.
    5 With 4 auxiliaries, 2 switches and 2 relays. All auxiliaries go out when main beam is dipped.
    6 Four auxiliaries, 4 switches and 4 relays. Would replicate the Works set up (but might not be an exact copy). Again all auxiliaries go out when main beam is dipped. Possibly not strictly road legal (as I read the rules) but late minis used a 4 auxiliary set up so you would probably get away with it! Also of use for people who want to do Stage rallies at night!

    That shoud cover most peoples needs, but it does take a bit of time drawing it all up and making recommendations on cable size, joints, relays and switches.

    At the moment I'm quite busy getting ready for Minis to Monte, so if cswright can post his drawing that will get folks started.

    Pete

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